About this episode

Today, I am the guest on the podcast. I’ve had a few people reach out and ask how things are going with the startup of Grindology. One friend, in particular, challenged me when I shared with him some of the obstacles I was going through. He mentioned that I constantly talk about how messy entrepreneurship is here on the show, yet I don’t often talk about my own entrepreneurial journey.

That truth hit me. I never want to make this podcast all about me. I want it to be filled with content that supports you in your entrepreneurial journey. However, if many of you are going through the same challenges that I am going through, I want to discuss them.

I am still right in the thick of this journey towards founding and growing Grindology. Today I am sharing some of the lessons I have learned thus far. It’d be much easier to wait until I’ve mastered these lessons, but I don’t want to wait to serve and support you. So, tune in to hear me unpack my Grindology journey and everything I’ve learned throughout the development of this startup.

In this episode, you'll hear:

  • What Grindology is.
  • Why I decided to found Grindology.
  • How focusing on your needs led me to the concept of Grindology.
  • The power of receiving mentorship and guidance from entrepreneurs who have been through the startup process.
  • Some of the challenges I’ve faced in building Grindology.
  • Why we cannot minimize the importance of timing.
  • Why we must understand our cash flow and not only focus on profitability.
  • The adjustments I would have made in my business plans looking back.
  • All about my current struggle of trying to balance cost and quality when leveraging freelancers and outsourcing talent.

Resources from this episode

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The Startup Story on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/thestartupstory
The Startup Story is now on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/jamesmckinney
The Startup Story on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thestartupstory

Episode with Chris Brownridge, founder of GawkBox: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/chris-brownridge-founder-of-gawkbox/id1448729937?i=1000454435661

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EPISODE CREDITS

If you like this podcast and are thinking of creating your own, consider talking to my producer, Danny Ozment.

He helps thought leaders, influencers, executives, HR professionals, recruiters, lawyers, realtors, bloggers, and authors create, launch, and produce podcasts that grow their business and impact the world.

Contact him today at https://emeraldcitypro.com/startupstory

Episode transcript

James McKinney: Hello everyone. My name is James McKinney, founder of Grindology and, oh yeah, this podcast, and this is an update on MY startup story.

  • Every wildfire began with a spark. Every superhero has an origin story. And every single startup has a moment that they point to as their beginning. And every founder has a purpose that drove them in the midst of all obstacles. THAT is The Startup Story. *

[00:32]

James McKinney: Hello everyone and welcome to another episode of The Startup Story. Before we jump into this week's episode I just want to catch up on some listener reviews because you all have been so generous with your kind words. Doc_FN gave the show a five star rating on Apple Podcast and wrote, "I never write podcast reviews ever, but after listening to the interview with Dylan Jacob I was immensely impressed at the quality and direction of the questions. I'm in the middle of founding my first company and I am re-listening to your interviews and taking notes, because they are chock full of great information. Subscribed for life." Man, thank you so much for that Doc_FN. Part of the challenge with launching a startup is getting the name out there, and I wish you would have plugged your brand, URL, or social media account in your review so that way I could have plugged it and given your brand visibility to my 85,000 listeners. You know I say it in every episode because I truly do believe it, entrepreneurs support other entrepreneurs and you supported me by writing your first review for the show, and I would have loved to have supported you by plugging your startup. I'll tell you what, hit me up on Instagram @TheStartupStory and we'll figure out a way to plug you in an upcoming episode. I mean it, I want to help you out because you wrote such a great review and I'm so appreciate of that.

Now for everyone else listening I just spent three minutes reading this review, and those three minutes could have included your brand, URL, or social media account. That is free visibility to you and your startup, so make sure you head over to Apple Podcast and leave a written review. But in doing so, make sure you plug your brand, URL, or social media account in that review. And also if you think your personal startup story has value for all those listening then make sure to visit thestartupstory.co/yourstory and submit your story for consideration for a featured episode. We're always looking for an incredible founder story and one that most people might not have ever heard. Now, while we cannot guarantee that your story will be selected for an episode, it is the absolute best way to submit your story to us for consideration.

Now let me go back to that review real quick. One of the things that I love about that particular review truly is what makes The Startup Story unique, and that is the depth and direction of the questions that I deliver to my guests. You might not know this but I never give my guests any questions ahead of time. Even when a publicist is the one scheduling their guest or their clients for the show, I never give questions. I'm serious, I don't give questions to any founder, literally nobody, and I mean that. Even high profile founders like Ben Chestnut, the founder of Mailchimp, or Christina Stembel the founder of Farmgirl Flowers, and Larry Namer the founder of E! Entertainment Television. Not a single one gets questions ahead of our discussion and I do that for two reasons. First, I want the show to feel like it's just the three of us sitting around a table, learning from a massively successful founder and talking about their journey and some of the challenges they had to overcome. Now if you were listening you might have noticed I said the three of us, because when I'm interviewing them I truly do picture you sitting at that table with us, and I'm constantly processing what are the questions that you might have based on where you are in your entrepreneurial journey. Now, full transparency it's actually not that hard for me to picture where you are at in your journey because I've been there. I have walked through all the stages of the entrepreneurial journey except the segment of the road that includes massive success and a potential exit. I suspect that part of our journey is virgin territory for you as well, so my questions are to glean whatever possible so that both you and I can increase our chances of getting there.

The other reason I don't provide questions to my founders ahead of time is that I don't want prepared responses. I want what's real, what's raw, and unrehearsed. I want transparent, authentic. Now look, the entrepreneurial journey is messy and we all learn so much along the way. In fact, sometimes the messier the more we learn. But more often than not we learn more from the mistakes than we do the successes and I want to hear about those mistakes. I mean go back and listen to my episode featuring Chris Brownridge with GawkBox. We recorded his episode just 30 days after he shut down GawkBox after raising over $ 4 million. [05:00] That episode was super raw and incredibly real, and I'll include a link in the show notes so you have easy access for it, so make sure you check that out. But in the midst of the discussion with my founder guests I can tell if something is a bit tough to talk about and those are the moments that I want to peel back because there's so much for you and I to learn from that moment.

For crying out loud we see the massive success of Larry Namer, right? The levels he achieved when he sold E! Entertainment for $3 billion, that's amazing. But it was during our discussion that I asked him if he ever thought about giving up after spending over two years trying to raise capital and not getting a single dime. The fact that he sold E! for $3 billion is what attracted me to his story, and probably actually attracted you and 10,000 other people to listen to the episode because it's a pretty dynamic catch, right? But it was my desire to hear his story of how he got there that I wanted to hear about because I knew there were amazing lessons to be gleaned. If you're wondering what Larry's response was to my question about whether or not he did consider giving up, the answer was yes. It was during the moment when all he had in his bank account was $60. Let me repeat that. The guy who sold E! Television for $3 billion did have a moment in his journey where he thought about giving up because he was down to his last $60. But he didn't give up, and that is why I don't give questions to my founder guests because I want the real, the raw, and the authentic. There is not a single entrepreneur that has travelled a golden road without any obstacles or challenges. I mean sure, some may have it a bit easier than others cough Kylie Jenner cough but those are the anomaly. Most of the entrepreneurs that you and I hold with esteem are the ones we truly know had to grind it out. Man, I love doing this. I truly do love sitting with our amazing founder guests and I love being able to share that conversation with you. And I hope that is why you keep coming back and listening. If so, please take a moment to leave a written review in Apple Podcast. It really does help with being discovered within the platform. All right, enough of the buildup. Let's jump in to this week's episode.

Our guest this week is, well, me. I know that seems a bit crazy. I've had a few people reach out to me to ask how things have been going with the launch of Grindology, and a friend of mine really challenged me because I am constantly talking about the messiness of entrepreneur, yet I don't often share about my own current journey. Now to my credit I want The Startup Story platform to serve you and help equip you for your entrepreneurial journey. I never want to make this about me. There are plenty of podcasts out there where the host is the spotlight and self-proclaimed expert. I will never allow that to happen with The Startup Story. With that said, I was challenged by my friend because I was sharing about some obstacles I'm currently working through and he said, "You need to be sharing more about this stuff with your audience because they are also working through similar obstacles." And that truth really hit me. At first I was thinking that social media is a great platform for documenting the journey. Much like Quinton and Terran Lewis, cofounders of Herb'N Eden did a few episodes ago, they talked about this documentation part where you document everything. The problem is that I hate social media. I only have social media accounts out of necessity. In fact, if Facebook ever allowed you to run Facebook ads without actually having a Facebook account I will be the first to take that opportunity immediately. I hate social media.

Now, I love the idea of sharing more about what I've learned while developing and launching Grindology, but social media isn't authentic to me. I'm 43. I'm not going to walk around holding a camera facing me, talking to it. That just doesn't feel right for me, it feels weird. But I will gladly record audio and high value video content. I feel that the more highly produced content pieces like a well done podcast or a produced video piece deliver real learning moments and are truly consumed in a way where the view or listener is in a learning mode. Social media to me is more about consumption of entertainment. Now, please hit me up on Instagram if you feel differently about that. See what I did there? Drew you to social media. Those are the quick bit conversations I think social media is good for. The real learning stuff not so much. Now again, hit me up on Instagram @TheStartupStory and let's discuss otherwise.

But nevertheless the idea of sharing more about the lessons learned in the development and launch of Grindology can absolutely serve the greater audience, especially because I'm still right in the thick of it. Yes, it would be much more comfortable to talk about the lessons learned once I have mastered the lesson and I'm sitting on a story of success. But there are lessons that I've learned today that can actually serve you today. [10:00] So with that in mind I think it would make sense to just lay the foundation by addressing what Grindology is and from there we can unpack the journey and the lessons that I've learned to date.

For those who are new to The Startup Story this might be the first time you're hearing about Grindology. For those who have been around for a little may be you have not quite processed truly what Grindology is. But Grindology is an entrepreneurial subscription box that delivers real resources to help you in your entrepreneurial journey. Each Grindology box will ship quarterly and the centerpiece of each shipment is the Grindology tactical manual. The Grindology tactical manual is just that. It is a playbook that is full of founder direct tactics and strategies that they have used to build their business. Not a single piece of content within the quarterly issues is provided by a journalist or thought leader. It's just real tactics from real founders. In addition to the current issue of Grindology, each box includes two custom coffee brews that are roasted to help fuel the entrepreneur journey. In fact, on the back of each bag there's a startup snapshot introducing you to our featured brand for that quarter. Everything we do is centered on startups and entrepreneurship. I'm so frigging pumped about what this box, and specifically the Grindology tactical manual can do to help you with your business. The boxes are shipping right now so feel free to visit grindology.com and get your Q1 box.

So now that you know a bit more about what Grindology is, let me answer one question that I get fairly often, and that is, "Why did I even feel the need to create Grindology?" I have The Startup Story right, so why did I need something else? And the answer to that is simple, because 2020 absolutely destroyed the monetization streams that I had in place for The Startup Story. Prior to COVID my primary source of revenue was sponsorships and advertisers for The Startup Story, and Startup Story Live which was a large scale in person event that was to be held at the global headquarters of the Dallas Cowboys. Now aside from sponsorships and advertisers, Startup Live ticket revenue was an additional revenue stream. Well, as you know COVID shut down live events and still has. Because of the unknown impact to a global economic shutdown brands and sponsors all pulled their advertising dollars. From almost every platform actually. In fact , if you were running a Facebook ad during the shutdown then you saw firsthand how affordable Facebook ads were because the big brands were not spending. So with absolutely zero revenue and an audience that nearly grew 4X during the pandemic I had to figure out how to provide for my family. And after tapping into some incredible minds from my founder network one of the things I heard consistently was you need to generate revenue that is not dependent upon brokering access to your audience. I'll repeat that again for those who maybe have an audience and are finding themselves in a similar situation. I'm going to repeat that exact words that were told to me time and time again: you need to generate revenue that is not dependent upon brokering access to your audience. That guidance, combined with the real need to provide for my family, was the reason I created Grindology.

Now of all the things I could have created, how did I come up with the concept for Grindology? After I realized the truth and what my founder network was saying to me I had to wrestle with how to accomplish this task because I value you, the founder, creator, maker, hustler, entrepreneur, even wantrepreneur. I was not about to start bringing something to you that didn't serve you and deliver real value to your entrepreneurial journey. I mean look at our past advertisers. Not a single one of them is the normal brands you hear on other podcasts. Look, I love the Manscaped brand and their hilarious ads, but that product doesn't serve you in your entrepreneurial journey. That is why I partnered with brands like Brex and Vari, formerly Varidesk, and Design Pickle. Because those brands and services can deliver real value to you and your entrepreneurial journey. Everything I do has to deliver value to you , and that had to remain true for whatever product or service I was going to create myself.

So know that was my starting position, knowing that was my true north, I began to think about all the challenges that we - I'm saying you and I - have as founders, creators, makers, hustlers, entrepreneurs, and even wantrepreneurs. That thing that kept coming back to me was mentorship, and direct guidance from people that have navigated the same journey that we are on. In fact, I was reminded about how we pivoted our live in person event, Startup Live, to a two day live stream event last May in response to the COVID shutdown. Again, it was supposed to be a huge in person event at the global headquarters of the Dallas Cowboys. It was going to be awesome. But again, because of shutdown we pivoted to live stream. Then instead of just being one even with three amazing founders and lots of startup exhibitors we went to two days with 13 amazing founders. [15:00] During that two day event where we brought 13 unbelievably successful founders to share exactly how they were navigating during the pandemic, this event had 13 founders sharing the tactics they were using themselves to navigate the same landscape that we all were in. That event was massively successful. Now, not financially but because it was streamed in 77 countries and to over 6,000 entrepreneurs that needed the guidance and direction, that to me was a success. The fact that we were able to direct real founder direct tactics who were on the battlefield right then and there, solving how to build and grow their business in the midst of a pandemic, being able to serve people like you and I who are early on in that stage and just struggling to find the solution for it, that was success to me.

And that is when I realized what I needed to create. I needed to create a resource that served entrepreneurs with proven tactics from proven entrepreneurs. And if you're like me you research and read a lot. And more often than not, the person giving the guidance that we find online hasn't actually built any business themselves. That is why books like "The Lean Startup" continue to receive so much praise among entrepreneurs, because it was written from the learnings of an entrepreneur who failed. Let me state that again. "Lean Startup" was written by an entrepreneur who failed and shared his learnings with us. We, I'm saying again we collectively, we long for mentorship and guidance from those who have attempted to do what you and I are trying to do now, and that's build a frigging business. It was that realization, that reflection on what made Startup Story Live so remarkable that I knew I had to create a tactical manual that only contains founder direct guidance.

So you might be wondering where the coffee concept comes in, right? Well, let's just be honest. Can you name an entrepreneur that doesn't drink coffee? No, I mean it's in our lifeblood. I'm sure if you pierce my vein I'm going to have some blood, but at some point some java is going to come out right? So if I was going to develop an entrepreneurial resource box then I needed to have an essential item for all of us, and that's coffee. So now that I've kind of told you a little bit of background of Grindology, where it came from, why this particular concept, let me share about some of the challenges I've encountered and a few lessons I've learned. Let me be very transparent, these are lessons that I'm still currently l earning but it's really relevant and I think it might bring some tremendous value to you.

So the first lesson that I want to share with you is the lesson that I'm not minimizing the importance of timing. It was early September when I had fully committed to move forward with Grindology, September of 2020. The initial plan was to launch for sale in early October so that I could gain momentum as a potential Christmas gift for, I'm using air quotes here, "for those who are hard to buy for." Especially as well as to capitalize on year end business spending, because again this is for entrepreneurs. There's a yearend spending that takes place in some businesses and I wanted to be a part of that discussion. Well when we started reaching out to various product suppliers we were reminded of the impact of COVID was still being felt. Coffee packaging, corrugated cardboard, and even paper had backorder issues due to the supplier issues because of COVID. Quickly we realized that our initial plan for launch in October was not going to happen. So what did we decide to do? Well, just push back our launch a month because that would then allow us to take pre- orders and ship our first box in January. At first glance, that didn't sound like such a bad plan right? Launch your product with full transparency that the product will ship in January, maybe even offer a pre-order discount or a launch special. Here is where the lesson of timing comes into play because all that seems right and reasonable. And while my pre-order idea did seem reasonable, it assumed that the time table that product providers gave me was fully secured. It assumed that the impact of COVID was reliable and therefore the dates that my box and coffee packaging providers gave to me were locked and loaded. My plan did not have any room for delays and that never even crossed my mind.

So instead of shipping in early January, we did not ship our first box until mid February. So of course, because delivering value was critical, as is earning the trust of all those who subscribe to Grindology, we shipped them free coffee and gave 30 days free access to The Startup Story Inner Circle. All in, each subscriber received closed to $80 in products as a way of making amends for a delay that I did not account for. Take that number and multiply it across all those who pre-ordered and that number becomes very, very painful especially given the hardship of my second lesson.

And that second lesson being that you can not only focus on profitability but you have to understand your cash flow. For those of you who have ever created a tangible product then you know that there are considerable costs that need to be paid upfront before you can generate a single dollar of revenue. [20:00] Now once you're an established business you can open up credit lines with your vendors to get 30 days of payment terms, but when you're placing your first order with them there is no opportunity for payment terms with them. You need to pay up front. So if you remember, our initial launch plan was to launch in October but we pushed it to November. So now a 30 day delay doesn't seem like that much of an issue as it relates to cash flow, but that 30 day delay in launching put us right in the midst of the Thanksgiving and Christmas holiday season. We did not get the 30 days runway to establish ourselves as a viable gift or a product worthy of attention during this very noisy attention seeking season.

In addition to that, Facebook ad spend was astronomical. That season, if you have never run Facebook ads during the November and December months, it is sky high as the big brands are competing for that gift dollar. After three weeks we just shutdown ads because our CAC, our Customer Acquisition Cost, were way too high. So the only sales we got were organic through the show, The Startup Story, and what little press we did garner. As well as through a few partnerships we established. We did not pick up our Facebook ad strategy again until the beginning of January. So now our launch delay wasn't 30 days anymore. Now it's truly a 90 day delay. Up until this point, I had been laser focused on product costs and margin, especially because I was spending so much in product manufacturing. Our margins were fine. The problem was that I'm a bootstrapped startup. I'm not venture backed. My funds are not endless. And by the end of 2020 I had over $100,000 in product cost out and hardly any revenue to offset the cash outflow. I was so focused on ensuring profitability and maintaining healthy margins per box, including the customer acquisition costs that I was budgeting and forecasting, but I lost track of what this ultimately meant for cash flow.

By the time mid December hit, I had just a few thousand dollars in the account, and we haven't even ramped up Facebook ad spend yet. Cash flow is so critical to a business, but all we ever talk about is profitability. Yes, when you're pitching VC they want to know your burn rate, but that is such a simple version of a cash flow assessment, and it truly minimizes the importance of cash flow. Had I been analyzing cash flow as frequent and as intentionally as I was analyzing profitability I would have seen in October that we were going to hit a wall in December and I could have adjusted plans early on. Now, let's be honest here, what adjustments would I have made? Well, I probably would have unboxed our subscription box for the first quarter shipment and sold components instead of the whole box. The coffee was ready to ship in December. Had I assessed everything I could have made more strategic and intentional decisions. But again, I ignored cash flow and just focused on profitability because that's what we hear so often. We hear about profitability in the headlines and that becomes our focal point. But as entrepreneurs we cannot take our eye off of all the aspects of the business. You cannot neglect your cash flow.

What's really embarrassing about me admitting this to you is that I have a finance and accounting degree. My first 10 years in corporate America were centered around financial statements which include cash flow. As entrepreneurs we get so pumped to bring our product to market we forget the details, and it's the details that make all the difference. Had I really looked at the situation in October when I knew there were going to be product delays, that first shipment would have looked very different. But by the time I saw the wall we had hit, by the time I saw the cliff we were about to fall off of I couldn't change it up. I can't change it up. At this point it's February now so it's really something in the rearview mirror, and it's really about finding our true product market fit within Facebook ads, and trying to make sure that who we're delivering Grindology ads to truly made sense, and it's really about messaging and copy. There's a lot of things we're solving now. But in the midst of it when it comes to cash flow, had I had my eye on the ball in October things would have looked very differently for that coming out product. It would have just been augmented to address the cash flow and profitability demands that we had, but again I was just so focused on one element and we cannot take our eye off the ball, and that ball being cash flow.

You know my last, and to be honest my current challenge is centered on leveraging freelancers and outsourced talent. When you're a solopreneur you can only do so much. Regardless of what type of business you're building there's going to be a point where you reach the limit of your ability or your capacity. I don't care what business you're in, this is true of everybody. [25:00] Within the ecommerce space you constantly hear about how virtual assistants are used to help cover some tasks and functions that can free up your time. In fact, I'm pretty sure virtual assistants are the basis for the Tim Ferriss book "Four Hour Work Week." Full transparency, I haven't read it. The entrepreneurs I look up to do not work four hours, and so the book just never appealed to me, and I know I'm going to get some hate for this but I just don't see the validity to a four hour work week. Please, hit me up on LinkedIn if you disagree. I would love to hear your thoughts on this. With that said, I do believe in leveraging freelancers and virtual assistants. The problem is that the balance of cost and quality, I just haven't found that sweet spot yet.

Back to my cash flow lesson earlier, I needed to find resources that were incredibly affordable. And when I did find those who were affordable, their quality was nothing that I would ever want to put out there under my brands. Yet, when I did find freelancers that could deliver the quality I desired their costs were not at the rate I needed. Like I said, I haven't solved this one yet and I don't know if there are some diamond in the rough overseas resources that I just haven't discovered yet, but this continues to be a challenge for me. My primary tool for sourcing freelancers and virtual assistants is Upwork.com. If you're unfamiliar with Upwork I'll include a link in the show notes for easy access. It's a great platform, but like I said I haven't solved this balance of cost and quality yet. I haven't found that resource, so maybe there is another resource out there to find the incredibly talented and very affordable talent in the world. If you have that resource and are willing to share it, man I would love to hear that because I'm still looking for it. And I have lots of categories in which I still need freelance help with, but really if you have freelancers that are amazing and affordable I would love to hear that. Please hit me up on Instagram @TheStartupStory, on LinkedIn as well.

Launching a new brand is messy and I know I'm preaching to the choir about that one, but I hope the learnings that I've shared with you brought you tremendous value. I know because of my experience thus far that I am never going to minimize the importance of timing as well as the importance of understanding my cash flow situation. Entrepreneurship is in my DNA, and I know there's going to be other product launches in my future. And I just know that to be true of you as well, that's why you keep coming back because you want to learn from it. And I hope that by my sharing the challenges and obstacles I've encountered over the last few months, as well as the key learnings from them, that they'll help you in your journey. With that said, if you want proven advice from massively successful founders then now is your time to visit Grindology.com and get your box. The first issue of the Grindology tactical manual focuses on growth, and we have some amazing founders sharing their customer acquisition strategies as well as their sales conversion tactics, and so much more.

Again, this is founder direct, not a single piece of content is from a journalist. Everyone in there has actually built a business so all the things that we're searching for online, that we're probably getting form just bloggers and journalists and self proclaimed thought leaders, like we're getting this from the founders within the Grindology tactical manual. And I'm just like you, and I know Grindology is going to help you in your journey because it is helping me right now. So please visit Grindology.com, check out our first box, and I would love to get your feedback once you get that box. We're shipping them now. Entrepreneurs support other entrepreneurs. I'm so appreciative of you allowing me to serve you each week by sharing some incredible founder stories, and we're going to pick that back up next week. Again, The Startup Story is never going to be a platform where it's about me, but I just had enough people in my life saying, "James, you need to be sharing YOUR current challenges with those who are listening to you, because they're going through the same thing." So I hope this was of service to you. And I hope that you'll continue to come back, subscribe to The Startup Story on whatever your platform of choice is. And now for my personal ask.

The Startup Story community has been so incredible about sharing our podcast with others, but we have more stories to tell and more people to reach. We too are a startup and word of mouth is everything, so please follow us on Facebook and Instagram @TheStartupStory or on Twitter @StartupStory_. If you're on LinkedIn, please search for The Startup Story and follow our company page. LinkedIn is a really powerful way to raise awareness of the show. But the most impactful way you can help us grow our audience is to leave a review on Apple Podcast. Or if you listen to the show via Spotify, then please simply share the podcast directly from your Spotify app or wherever you listen to the show.

These simple actions can make a huge impact in getting these amazing founder stories out to the masses. And please make sure to tag or mention The Startup Story when you do share so that we can connect with you and say thank you directly. I'm so incredibly appreciative of the fact that you listen to the show each and every week, and I look forward to sharing these amazing stories with you every Tuesday with hopes of encouraging and inspiring you to start your story.

If you like this podcast and are thinking of creating your own, consider talking to my producer Danny Ozment. He helps thought leaders, influencers, executives, and authors create, launch, and produce podcasts that grow their business and make a real impact in this world. You can contact him today at emeraldcitypro.com/startupstory.

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February 23 2021
James McKinney, founder of Grindology

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